- This topic has 13 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 10 months ago by Munch.
Front brakes – two finger or four?
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May 23, 2009 at 6:12 pm #2880samgoodyParticipant
I had a training session with my local (three hours away) Harley dealership. My instructor told me to keep all four fingers on the twist grip and only put my fingers on the front brake lever when I needed to stop. I noticed that if I use all four fingers, I tend to accidentally rev the engine a little bit even if I grip the throttle low. I had the clutch pulled in, so the bike didn’t go anywhere. However, if I use two fingers, no accidental revving happens. I talked with the instructor about this, and he told me it’s not a problem as long as I keep the clutch pulled in. He said this is a normal reaction in beginners, and that the casue is that they haven’t learned to use just their fingers to pull the lever (as opposed to their wrist getting involved in the pulling). I asked him whether he uses two fingers or four, and he said that he normally uses one or two unless it’s an emergency, in which case he uses four.
So, is there a right number of fingers on that front brake lever? How do you apply your front brakes? Do you keep any fingers on the front brakes while in motion (as David Hough advises in Proficient Motorcycling), or keep them off (as the MSF advises)?
May 23, 2009 at 6:54 pm #18872briderdtParticipantI got the same lecture when I was in my MSF class. I’d done a fair amount of mountain biking with shortie levers (I road raced for a lot of years), and I’d ridden my SV prior to the class as well (dual front disks and LOTS of stopping power). So I already had the habit of two-fingering the brake lever. Well, in the class they wanted you to use all fingers on the throttle unless you were braking, and then all fingers went to the brake lever. The reasons for that were not to develop that habit so much as to avoid potential problems with people who weren’t used to hand controls (separating the actions of braking and throttle, in effect). Several times I had to be reminded in the class to not cover the front brake while riding (but the instructors were just as quick to say that it’s a pretty good practice on the road).
I now have shortie levers on my SV (made them myself, and no, not from a drop), and I use two fingers on both the brake and clutch levers, and cover them at all times (though sometimes on the highway I’ll not cover the clutch).
May 23, 2009 at 7:15 pm #18873eternal05ParticipantMSF teaches use of all four fingers so that newbies don’t run into problems accidentally using both brake and throttle at the same time.
If you look at most experienced riders, you’ll see that one to three fingers are often used depending on the rider’s preference. There are several reasons for this. First, using two fingers allows you to cover the brake while in tricky situations on the street. This substantially reduces your reaction time getting on the brakes in an emergency. Second, it allows you to both brake and blip the throttle when downshifting (definitely more common on the track).
I personally use two fingers on the brake 90% of the time.
May 23, 2009 at 7:27 pm #18874Speedy RodriguezParticipantActually, I use the three-finger technique: index, ring, and pinky so the remaining one can send a message to the a-hole who cut you off–and was the reason you needed the brakes in the first place…
May 24, 2009 at 2:59 am #18885SantaCruzRiderParticipantI generally keep my fingers off the brake, but I typically cover with 2 when I’m in a situation where I think I may need to brake suddenly — such as when moving thru an intersection with left turners or when in a commuter lane doing 70 and the lane next to me is doing 20.
I haven’t tested it, but I have found that I can typically get all the stopping power I need from two fingers (your brake lever, finger strength and brakes may differ — so this is not universal).
I have also tried covering with one finger, but when I’ve had to slow and then suddenly needed max brake, one finger is not enough and I end up facing the choice of squeezing hard with 1 and hoping I get enough brake or releasing all front brake long enough to get at least 2 fingers on. So I no longer cover with 1.
When I know I’m braking (like approaching a freeway offramp or stop sign), I just squeeze with my whole hand.May 24, 2009 at 3:20 am #18886KellisanthParticipantWhen I was taking the BRC on the 250s, I had to be kept reminded on not covering the front brakes, and when I did use the brakes, to use all four fingers instead of just using the index/middle fingers when braking.
When I was riding my 500 about, I was still using the index/middle on the front levers.
The main times I’ve covered/clenched the front with four fingers was when I was mounting, or sitting at a stop.
To me, I think it’s a matter of personal preference of the rider, and how comfortable their hands are in relation to the lever and finger/hand grip. I could be wrong?
May 24, 2009 at 5:42 am #18897MadCowParticipantPersonally, I have a mortal fear of high siding. I know two guys who high sided, and the results are not pretty. So for that reason, I haven’t bothered to train myself to use the two finger method properly. I just don’t think that the risk of instinctively braking before you roll off the gas is the worth the reaction time you save reaching for the brake. I’m not saying that others shouldn’t do it; I’m just saying that it’s not for me.
On a side note, how many people hang off the bike on turns? That is one racing technique that I believe a lot of people agree is good to use for street riding. The reason being that you want to keep your bike as upright as possible for stability and for a bigger contact patch.
May 24, 2009 at 6:02 am #18899briderdtParticipantBigger contact patch? I’m going to have to say no on that one. In fact, your contact patch increases as you lean over. And it’s not about stability, it’s about being able to carry more speed through a corner by effectively increasing the lean angle of the bike/rider combination (by lowering the center of mass relative to the corner center) beyond what you could otherwise do because you’d be dragging hard parts. Not something for public roads. Others (who are most likely well beyond the speed limit) may disagree.
May 24, 2009 at 7:18 am #18900megaspazParticipantSpecify what you mean in regards to contact patch increases as you lean over. A lot of available traction, what your calling contact patch, depends on tire profile, tire compound, suspension set up, accelleration inputs, braking, etc. The important thing about the contact patch is how much force it can transmit before losing traction. The more you lean, the more you force your contact patch to transmit. When the bike’s completely upright, you are increasing the bikes stability and available traction because less force is being transmitted through the contact patch. And you carry more corner speed by increasing your bike’s stability… that’s why they tell you to take care of your braking, shifting, etc. before entering the corner.
Hanging off on the street would be a personal choice. In the rain, I definately recommend it. I personally, hang off even when not exceeding the speed limit. You don’t get points on the street for lean angle.
May 24, 2009 at 11:11 am #18902eternal05ParticipantContact patch: the area of tire surface in direct contact with the road at any given time. This DECREASES as the bike leans over, and INCREASES as the bike stands up (part of this has to do with the way tires deform, but it’s mostly just geometry). The size of the contact patch is directly correlated with the amount of traction you have on a dry, clean surface. Moreover, the lean angle of the bike also shifts the direction of force against the contact patch. That is to say, when the bike’s straight up-and-down, the weight of the bike is perpendicular to the contact patch, giving good traction. When you’re dragging your knee, corner forces acting against the traction of the contact patch are now substantially lateral, pushing your bike towards the outside of the turn and decreasing grip.
Traction: Your tires can provide so much. When there’s none left, you slide. Braking, turning, and accelerating all require traction, each variable with the degree to which it’s being done, of course. Use it all up via any combination of those three things, and you go down (or you’re a pro and you throw a sick rear slide).
Now, with regard to the motive behind hanging off, it is in order to DECREASE the lean angle of the bike, keeping it more upright through a turn of a given magnitude. Megaspaz hit on a key reason why this is good: more upright means bigger contact patch which in turn means more traction for turning and acceleration, as well as a greater sense of stability.
Though it confused me a bit, I think briderdt was saying the right thing. Taking a turn of a given radius faster requires leaning more. By hanging off you are, in a way, leaning the whole rider+bike package more, even if you’re trying to “unlean” the bike. The idea is, if you need your center of gravity to be nine inches left of your tires to make the turn at speed, but you don’t have enough lean angle to do so before hitting hard parts, you can straighten the bike while using your body weight to move the combined weight of bike and rider farther into the turn. This allows you to go faster while turning that same amount.
There is however another super important reason (for racers) to keep the bike more upright. The more you’re leaned over, the slower you go at a given engine speed. You should know this from experience (this is why if you don’t crack on the throttle as the bike leans over you slow way down and start to fall in). The explanation is very simple. The radius of the wheel at the rim is smaller than the radius of the wheel in the middle, and one revolution of the wheel translates to less distance covered. Therefore, the more upright you are through the corner, the faster you are going at a given engine speed.
That said, there are good reasons to use your body weight on the street, but I actually would not recommend hanging full off, especially not on roads you don’t know well. The reasons to use your body weight to decrease lean angle on the street are as follows:
1) Less lean angle means more traction. This is especially handy if you encounter unexpected cracks/potholes, dirt, debris, etc. in the road.
2) Less lean angle means more ground clearance for hard parts. Touch a footpeg to the asphalt and chances are you’re going down. Bad.Reasons not to hang off on the street:
1) If your knee is out, it’s not on the tank. No matter how good your form is, you’re more vulnerable to bumps and unexpected road conditions than you would be with both knees gripping the bike. Racers don’t have this problem because the tracks, for the most part, are predictable and obstacle-free. Also, chances are your leg muscles aren’t up to the challenge of keeping you on.
2) The farther your knee is from the bike, the more it makes a great hook for some road obstacle to grab you by.That said, there are certain favorite roads where sometimes I can’t resist. I mean, you SHOULDN’T speed, but sometimes that’s not enough to stop ya Get the stretcher ready. Just sayin’.
May 24, 2009 at 11:16 am #18903eternal05ParticipantGrabbing a handful of front brake while still somewhat on the gas could only make you highside if you grabbed just enough to maintain traction, while slow the bike enough that the drive on the rear wheel caused the rear to spin. The rear would then have to drift out of line with the front, then regain traction, snap back, and throw you off. Not likely, but I can understand why you’d want to be cautious. Highsiding doesn’t look like much fun, and like you, I do my best to avoid it
One thing I’ll say is that, like you would using four fingers, you still have to roll the gas off to get on the brakes when using two. The reason is that with your wrist rotated for the throttle, your fingers probably won’t be long enough to actually squeeze the lever without rolling back.
This suggests to me that you’re raising your throttle hand position when trying the two-finger method. Consciously return to a low throttle grip and then give it a try, just standing still, and see if that makes a difference. Just a thought. There’s nothing terrible about four-finger braking, so if it doesn’t suit you, don’t sweat it.
May 31, 2009 at 11:55 am #19105MisterParticipantI use four fingers for all general purpose riding. And the reason is, if I need to Crash Stop – or Emergency Stop if you prefer that term – I can squeeze the front break in ALL the way without getting any fingers caught and maybe preventing full breaking.
If I used 2 fingers and wanted to go to 4, I would first have to release the break to give my fingers room to move up and over the break lever – I have long fingers.
The only time I use 2 fingers is in thicker slower traffic where sudden cage lane changes might need attention; or the cage in front propping needs attention. But in these cases I am also covering the rear break too and small little touches on either keep my speed and position in a Lane Owning one.
That’s me and my riding style. Others may feel more comfortable with 2 fingers. So be it. Use what works for you.
May 31, 2009 at 2:14 pm #19110eternal05ParticipantThis speaks to the vast difference in front brakes between a sportbike and something else. The only way you will ever need to pull a sportbike brake lever far enough that it hits your fingers will be when you’re in minute 30 of a 150mph track session and your brakes have begun to exhibit fade. When riding on the street you won’t even come close.
May 31, 2009 at 3:09 pm #19113MunchParticipantOn my 900 I use all 4 and never cover the lever unless I am in town. On the highway you will likely need very little use of them unless you get caught in rush hour traffic, in which case I will cover. The Vulcan 900 though has a hard braking system. Not as touchy as some would like it to be. The bike stops more like a car then most motorcycles. Rear braking even in highway conditions is definitely gonna be needed.
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